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HomeFinancial AdvisorEpisode #430: Frank Giustra & Ian Telfer – The Bull Case for...

Episode #430: Frank Giustra & Ian Telfer – The Bull Case for Gold – Meb Faber Analysis

Episode #430: Frank Giustra & Ian Telfer – The Bull Case for Gold


Visitors: Frank Giustra & Ian Telfer are mining executives that constructed Goldcorp right into a $50 billion enterprise. Ian is the previous Chairman of Goldcorp and Frank was a co-founder & Director of Goldcorp. Frank later based Lionsgate leisure.

Date Recorded: 7/12/2022     |     Run-Time: 52:36

Abstract: In at this time’s episode, we’re speaking all about gold with two of essentially the most knowledgable within the area. The fellows focus on why the arrange at this time mirrors 2001, a time proper earlier than gold when on an enormous bull run. We additionally contact on how gold carried out through the 1970’s and why they’re so bullish on gold at this time that they began one other mining firm, Aris.

Feedback or strategies? Interested by sponsoring an episode? Electronic mail us [email protected]

Hyperlinks from the Episode:

  • 0:38 – Intro
  • 1:23 – Welcome to our friends, Frank Giustra & Ian Telfer
  • 2:12 – The primary olive oil on this planet Domenica Fiore
  • 3:14 – Frank & Ian’s connection within the gold area with Goldcorp
  • 6:48 – How to consider gold at this time
  • 13:44 – The genesis of their new undertaking, Aris
  • 16:31 – Ian’s philosophy for M&A
  • 26:34 – Is Gold’s sideways consolidation a superb alternative for consumers?
  • 32:24 – World Asset Allocation
  • 37:58 – Twitter Ballot: How many individuals say they personal gold or miners?
  • 39:18 – Issues they’re desirous about as they appear out to the horizon
  • 45:12 – Their most memorable investments
  • 49:07 – Study extra about Frank and Ian: @Frank_Giustra



Meb: Welcome to “The Meb Faber Present,” the place the main focus is on serving to you develop and protect your wealth. Be part of us as we focus on the craft of investing, and uncover new and worthwhile concepts, all that can assist you develop wealthier and wiser. Higher investing begins right here.

Disclaimer: Meb Faber is the co-founder and the chief funding officer of Cambria Funding Administration. As a consequence of trade rules, he won’t focus on any of Cambria’s funds on this podcast. All opinions expressed by podcast members are solely their very own opinions and don’t replicate the opinion of Cambria Funding Administration or its associates. For extra data, go to

Meb: What’s up, my mates. We’ve an incredible present for you at this time. Our friends are Frank Giustra and Ian Telfer, two profitable mining executives that constructed Goldcorp to a $50 billion firm. Enjoyable reality, Frank additionally began Lionsgate Leisure. In at this time’s episode, we’re speaking all about gold with two of essentially the most educated and profitable operators and executives within the area. The fellows focus on why the macro set-up at this time mirrors 2001, a time proper earlier than gold went on an enormous bull run. We additionally contact on how gold carried out through the Nineteen Seventies and why they’re so bullish on gold at this time. They received the band again collectively and so they began in one other mining firm, Aris Gold. Please get pleasure from this episode with Frank Giustra and Ian Telfer.

Meb: Frank and Ian, welcome to the present.

Frank: Thanks.

Ian: Thanks.

Meb: I used to be simply remarking, this can be a fashionable Zoom. So, fellas, inform us the place you’re positioned at this time. I’m in Los Angeles. Frank, the place are you?

Frank: I’m in France.

Meb: And Ian?

Ian: I’m in Ontario, about two hours north of Toronto.

Meb: Very cool. Nicely, guys, we’re going to speak about all issues gold, macro, mining. However earlier than we begin, I received a query for Frank as a result of I’ve a bundle within the mail. It’s not right here but, so I can’t do a stay style take a look at, however I received some olive oil coming to my home out of your farm or out of your manufacturing firm. Give me slightly preview. What do I’ve to sit up for? What kind of makes use of? Is that this salad kind of olive oil? Is that this cooking olive oil? Give us slightly background.

Ian: Nicely, thanks for the free business. It’s known as Domenica Fiore, it’s named after my mom. I began making it about 12 years in the past or so, and it’s made in Italy in a spot known as Orvieto in Umbria. It’s rated the primary olive oil on this planet. And that’s not me saying that, that’s all these worldwide judges at nearly each competitors on the planet. Don’t use it for cooking. Please don’t use my oil for cooking. It’s far too useful. We name it ending oil, so use it for salads, dipping your bread, ending meats, pasta, soups, no matter. It’s ending oil. It’s beautiful.

Meb: I feel I received the sampler. Do you’ve got a favourite? I’m going to carry you to the fireplace.

Frank: The favourite is what we name the Novello Di Notte, which implies it’s new oil made at nighttime. We’re the one producer on this planet that harvest our oil very early within the season when it’s nonetheless actually sizzling in Italy. And we harvest in the course of the night time, and it makes a world of distinction. Simply an unimaginable oil, and it’s a really distinctive, very restricted version, Novello Di Notte.

Meb: Very cool. Nicely, I sit up for it. Let’s begin speaking about all issues mining and gold. You guys have labored collectively up to now, sort of bringing the band again collectively. So, Ian, I feel I’ll direct this one to you. Give us slightly origin story. You guys, what you’ve been as much as, after which we will get into what you guys are doing now.

Ian: As you stated, Frank and I’m going again fairly a methods within the gold enterprise with the beginning up of Wheaton River 20-plus years in the past. And our imaginative and prescient then was to construct a brand new main gold mining firm. Though lots of people begin off with that imaginative and prescient, we truly had been capable of accomplish it. We had been excited in regards to the timing, and we had been excited in regards to the alternative, and we had been very proud of the way it all unfolded.

Meb: For the listeners who aren’t as acquainted, so my non-Canadian Australians, give us slightly background. They might have heard the identify Wheaton River, however what does that imply? Inform us only a actual fast overview of what that was.

Ian: Certain. Nicely, in 2000, Frank and I made a decision we should always attempt to construct a significant gold mining firm. And as we seemed round for alternatives, we discovered this firm known as Wheaton River Minerals, and so they had run out of ore, and so they had slightly bit of money, and so they’d run out of concepts. And so Frank and I took over the board of administrators, put slightly of our personal cash in, after which very aggressively went out and began buying property to construct a gold mining firm. And over the following seven years, I suppose we purchased about 9 gold mines. And the market cap went from $20 million CAD to its…at its peak, it received to $50 billion USD. It was an incredible expertise, and the market was enthusiastic about it, and so they had been very completely satisfied that we had been there to create one other car for the traders. That was mainly the story.

Frank: Nicely, most traders would acknowledge the corporate as Goldcorp. It modified, and as we did certainly one of our reverse takeovers was with an organization known as Goldcorp, which was already current. We renamed Wheaton River Goldcorp again in 2003 or ’04. And so in case you had been to look it up, it was Goldcorp.

Meb: What was actually the principle worth driver? As a result of, I imply, that’s fairly dramatic…getting as much as a $50 billion market cap isn’t chump change and that’s not a straightforward process.

Ian: There was a pair, one was the value of gold. Our timing turned out to be completely impeccable. Once we began on the journey, the gold worth was about $250. After which over the following s7 or 8years, it received as much as nearly $2000. In order that, clearly, we had the wind at our again. However secondly, we had been essentially the most aggressive, kind of, agglomerator within the enterprise, and the market cherished that. And so we saved buying property, slightly bit like non-public fairness, besides we used fairness, we didn’t use a lot debt. So, placing the 2 collectively, the gold worth and the velocity at which we had been appearing, that’s what actually created all the worth.

Frank: And we purchased some nice property to start with. And going again to what Ian was saying, at the start, when nobody believed within the gold worth, there have been only a few of us. Truly, I wrote a thesis again in 2001 about what I anticipated gold to do subsequent. And at the moment, once I got here up with that publication, only a few individuals believed it. So once we had been on the market shopping for property, we had been shopping for extremely good property when fewer individuals wished them. And so it was…the concept was we chosen actually nice property and we received them early on and that gave us an enormous leg up over everybody else that got here in later as a gold worth began to maneuver.

Meb: So, right here we’re, quick ahead. It’s now 2022, and we’ve performed just a few podcasts on gold and mining, however lots on pure assets, particularly, farming basically, gold sitting someplace in that $1,700 zone. That is mid July. Frank, possibly give us slightly framework for a way to consider gold. We did a Twitter ballot the opposite day, or just a few months in the past, once we requested traders, “Do you’ve got any publicity to actual property?” And so, that means simply all commodities, even REITs, TIPs, and most traders don’t, or in the event that they do, they’ve little or no in a world of regardless of the inflation is at this time. That appears unwise, however give us possibly slightly macro consideration about gold basically. The place do you assume we’re? The case for it, all that good things.

Frank: I feel that the sentiment isn’t that dissimilar to 2001. We’ve only a few individuals at this time that imagine within the gold worth. They see it caught in a spread between kind of $1,700 and $2,000, and never going anyplace, they’ve watched all of the cryptocurrencies undergo the roof, and the tech shares undergo the roof, and the beginnings of an inflationary interval, and the truth that gold hasn’t moved. And I feel that sentiment is every thing in markets, and I feel it’s similar to how individuals felt again then. And the half that it’s essential to deal with is, who’re the true gold consumers in at this time’s market? And there are a number of traits that you must watch. And I’ve been writing about gold for over 20 years. I watch it very carefully, I write lots about macro traits and what’s occurring within the international financial system.

And you must simply take note of a few details. To begin with, bodily gold is transferring from West to East. So China, India, clearly, the 2 largest consumers of gold constantly shopping for gold over the a long time and including to their reserves, particularly China. Russia, additionally. And whereas the west has been targeted on paper gold, after they have any curiosity in gold, it’s simply paper gold, which isn’t actual gold, by the way in which. In the event you assume you’re shopping for actual gold, once you purchase gold ETFs, you’re badly mistaken. So the bodily stuff is transferring from West to East. And I feel that that’s one factor you must pay a variety of consideration to. Central banks…since 2010, central banks around the globe have been on a gold-buying binge. They proceed so as to add to the gold reserves. Their U.S. greenback publicity is slowly happening when it comes to their reserves, and their gold goes up. In order that they see the writing on the wall.

I feel in case you had been China at this time, with the way in which they take a look at making long-term choices, they’ve very long-term plans. They’ve been including to their gold reserves, and they’ll proceed so as to add to their gold reserves, and for them to see the gold worth staying the place it’s, is completely tremendous. I don’t assume they’re having any bother with that. The U.S., however, the Fed and others, different policymakers disparage gold. They don’t need you to personal gold. They name it a barbaric relic, it’s not a foreign money. Nicely, in reality, it’s a foreign money, and each central financial institution on this planet is aware of it’s a foreign money. So I simply watch what individuals do versus what they are saying. And people are the 2 main issues you must watch. So I feel that we’re heading in direction of some kind of international financial system reset. What that’s going to appear to be, who is aware of? It might play out some ways.

I wrote an article on this final week and I speculated that maybe it might go within the course of {a partially} backed gold foreign money use for settlement functions by nations that need to keep away from being sanctioned or expelled from the SWIFT system, U.S. SWIFT system. And so I feel that there’s a superb probability that gold might play a task in regardless of the financial system reset is, just because all of the central banks already personal it, they’re buying an increasing number of of it yearly. The idea system in fiat currencies is falling aside, and it’s falling aside in all places. In the event you take a look at what they’ve performed, not simply with the greenback, however the euro and the yuan, they’re destroying these currencies by printing trillions and trillions of these items. I feel since 2006, central financial institution reserves within the 5 main central banks have gone up 500%. They’re simply creating cash out of skinny air. And ultimately, you possibly can’t play that recreation eternally. And that’s why I feel the good cash, the long-term cash has gold publicity, and particularly the central banks.

Meb: Once we take a look at it, I feel gold not performing these days is a little bit of a shock to lots of people we discuss to. And we are saying there’s sort of two large quant elements that basically are optimistic for gold, one being unfavorable actual rates of interest, which we definitely have, and the opposite being an inverted yield curve, which we have now. And so, as we glance out within the horizon, let’s say we do that one other 12 months, two, or three, and we are saying, “Okay, properly, gold actually began to bull.” In the event you might guess, and that is extra of a contented hour/espresso query, so…however what kind of catalyst…Is there one thing that you’d say is your probably guess as to what…is it a bear market? Is it extra crypto fraud? Is it some kind of geopolitical one thing? What do you assume will trigger this to truly shift into bull mode?

Frank: I feel all of these issues that you just simply talked about will play a task, however I feel the most important, to me, will probably be when the Fed blanks once more. And going again to pre-2008, I began writing about what the Fed would do after the disaster of 2008, they did precisely that. They took charges to zero, printed some huge cash. Then Bernanke got here out and stated, “Nicely, you already know, no downside. We will normalize charges and we will unwind the stability sheet.” And I known as BS on that in a number of articles. After which as they began to lift charges, I stated, “They’re going to solely get them up to now, after which they’ll pause, clean, and reverse.” And I stated that in 2016 and 2017, and that’s precisely what occurred two years later. And I’m telling you, as we converse, my view of it’s that there’s all this discuss normalizing charges proper now as a result of inflation is so excessive and so they must get it beneath management, however they will’t. Mathematically, it’s not possible.

Anyone with a easy calculator will inform you that there’s a lot debt within the system, authorities, company, private debt is globally at $300 trillion, they will’t normalize charges. And so they know that, okay? So all this discuss these aggressive hikes, the way it’s going to get this beneath management, I believe by this fall…we’ll see, however my greatest guess is by someday this fall, they’ll clean, and they’ll pause, after which they’ll reverse. And we’re going to return to zero ultimately. If the market continues to implode or we fall right into a deep recession, there’s one other geopolitical occasion, no matter it’s, they’ll discover an excuse for it. Final time was a pandemic. They’ll discover an excuse for it, and they’ll pause. That’s, to me, going to be the catalyst that units the gold worth on fireplace as a result of I’d assume by then, individuals are going to understand that they’re in an inescapable lure. They can’t normalize charges. It’s mathematically not possible.

Meb: Let’s begin to take slightly stroll ahead to what y’all’s new concepts? What was the genesis of this concept? And provides us an summary of what you guys are banding up for now.

Frank: As Ian talked about, no, we received collectively…and I bear in mind I used to run an funding financial institution again within the ’90s, and Ian was certainly one of my large purchasers within the mining sector. And I bear in mind the day I resigned from the agency, I wished to step away from the trade and do one thing else. So I simply walked away. However I nonetheless had lunch booked with Ian. We went to lunch anyway, and I stated, “Ian, you already know what? I don’t know what I’m going to do subsequent. But when I ever come again to the mining trade…” that is again in 1996. I stated, “If I ever come again within the mining trade, you’ll be my first name.” Scroll ahead 5 years later, I believed…I got here up with the concept we would have liked to do one thing. I wasn’t fairly positive what, however I had my thesis on gold, and once I wished to create one thing, my first name was Ian. And we received collectively and we created Wheaton River, which ultimately grew to become two firms. So Wheaton River, which grew to become Goldcorp, and the spinoff, which was Silver Wheaton, the dear metals streaming firm, which is Wheaton Valuable Metals at this time, which I feel has a few $23 billion market cap. That was Ian’s genius of that spinoff, in order that was an unimaginable success.

Then in 2009, proper after the disaster and the printing of cash began to happen, we created Endeavor Mining, which I did with a fellow named Neil Woodyer, who was certainly one of our authentic board members on Wheaton River, by the way in which. And we created a mining firm with mines in West Africa. Through the years, we constructed it as much as about 5 completely different mines in 4 completely different nations, and it went as much as a few $3 billion, $4 billion market cap. Then in 2016, we did one other one, once more with Neil, this time in Latin America, that was Leagold. That was merged with Equinox, one other $2 billion or $3 billion firm. And once we offered Lea to Equinox, I knew…this was on the time when the Fed blanked again in 2019, and so they began to reverse course. I stated, “Okay, we’re going to be in for an actual gold market this time.” And this time they will be unable to drag it again.

And that is once I approached Ian and Neil once more. So now this time, it’s Neil Woodyer, Ian Telfer, myself, and a number of other others which have been within the gold mining enterprise for an extended, very long time, and we determined to create Aris. And Aris is the present firm with two initiatives, two very giant initiatives. And once more, it’s the beginnings of one thing. And the concept isn’t any completely different than every thing else we’ve performed up to now. It’s a buy-and-build technique. So, meaning utilizing our experience in M&A, and our experience with elevating cash within the capital markets, and our administration experience to know what property to purchase, what to pay for them, easy methods to repair them if they’ve an issue, easy methods to maximize worth. That’s the Aris story, which I’m a particular advisor to, Ian’s chairman, and Neil is CEO.

Meb: So Ian, how do you discover these particular property to purchase? Presumably, they’re not simply sitting on the market on a platter someplace. What’s the method, and the way do you guys sort of go about it? And inform us all of your secrets and techniques.

Ian: Nicely, as Frank says, the corporate is loaded with individuals which have been within the trade for a very long time. So we’re conscious of a variety of what’s occurring on the market, we have now information of a variety of the property, we have now information of who is perhaps focused on exiting the enterprise, and we have now a variety of expertise as to easy methods to run these extra effectively. However to get again to your query, giant, good, gold ore our bodies are very uncommon. They’re very uncommon. And Frank and I, we acknowledged that 20 years in the past. Nicely, they’re rarer now. And so, looking for them is a problem, and discovering them is a matter, and competitors for them is all the time round.

So you must be artistic, you must take some dangers. And up to now, we’ve been very enthusiastic about what we’ve been capable of do with Aris. Our ambitions are giant. The market has indicated over, and over, and over once more, they need some giant firms to put money into on the market. And each time a Goldcorp disappears into Newmont, properly, that creates a vacuum for another person. And in order that’s kind of the impetus for us. And as I say, we’ve performed a few issues up to now, however we’re very bold and we’re very aggressive. And historical past tells us that the market will reward us for that.

Meb: The place have you ever guys began discovering properties already? Are these in Canada, U.S., Africa, Latin America? The place are you guys discovering alternative?

Ian: Nicely, up to now it’s been Latin America, and it’s been Columbia. So we’ve received two operations…one operation down there, and one other mega undertaking to be constructed over the following three years, however we’re alternatives in different nations as properly.

Meb: As we discuss in regards to the gold miners basically, would love to listen to slightly perception from you guys as a result of there’s most likely…in case you had been to ask me, there’s most likely no different sub-sector or trade in my thoughts the place administration is extra essential than in y’all’s world. And I like the phrase “success leaves traces.” And so, gold mining as a sector, the shares haven’t been doing an entire lot for some time, however what are among the essential drivers that the market, on a safety stage, actually appears to be like for? Is it merely manufacturing multiples? Is it stability? Is it…? Simply discuss to us slightly bit about if we had been to do that in 2, 3 years and we stated, “Hey, you guys have 10X, 50Xed this firm,” and we glance again, like, what can be the sort of large drivers within the mining sector for you guys?

Frank: I feel…Hear, it’s a mix of issues, and I’m positive Ian will add to what I’m going to say, however administration, actually essential, particularly within the strategy that we take, okay? Administration is paramount as a result of it’s all about expertise, experience, and information. Mining, as you already know, is a really difficult trade. You need to not solely fear in regards to the geology and capital markets, we have now to fret in regards to the safety, you must fear about politics, and all types of alternate charges, one million various things. And in case you haven’t performed it earlier than, you’re going to…sure to run into surprises. So, expertise is every thing. In my view, and Ian most likely can add much more to this, is there are solely a handful of individuals on this world. It’s not an enormous trade per se. It’s not like, say, the tech trade or different industries. This can be a very small trade the place the profitable ones, you possibly can rely ’em nearly in a single hand, possibly two. To me, administration is every thing.

And I feel we’ve assembled…once you take a look at guys like Neil Woodyer, Ian Telfer, and we have now Peter Marrone on the board, David Garofalo, Serafino Iacono. We’ve all these those that have performed all of it earlier than in their very own proper and have come collectively to do it collectively. Everyone brings an entire load of expertise to the desk. And that, to me, that’s what permits me to sleep properly is understanding that the corporate’s in good palms. Everyone knows what we’re doing, everyone knows what our price is in creating this factor. So, Ian, do you’ve got something so as to add to that? I imply, that’s the way in which I see it.

Ian: I completely agree with that. And the opposite factor I feel Frank and I understood again once we began with Wheaton River, and we perceive now, we all know how uncommon good ore our bodies are, and we’re not afraid to exit and pay as much as get them. And I feel there are too many individuals within the gold trade on the lookout for a deal or on the lookout for a discount. We’re by no means on the lookout for a deal or a discount, we’re on the lookout for high quality, and I’m on the lookout for amount. I feel individuals underestimate how a lot measurement issues within the gold mining enterprise. And if you wish to get the eye of institutional traders, you higher present them you’re on a path to develop to be a big producer. And so Frank and I each perceive that. And once more, our expertise with Wheaton River, we went out for main property and needed to do main financings, however we had main success. And so we’ll be doing the identical factor over and over right here, however measurement is essential.

Frank: That’s a superb level. On that be aware, so the 2 initiatives that we at the moment have in Aris, our possession that’s to our accounts already get about 10 million ounces of gold that’s within the floor that must be extracted. That’s a variety of ounces of gold as a starter package, per se. Okay. So, and the grade is sweet, it’s nice grade, and it’s 10 million ounces that we hope to mine for our account. The target, and once you say, once we look again, let’s say 3, 4, 5 years from now, what’s the target? The place are we going? We have to create an organization that produces not less than one million ounces a 12 months of gold. That can put you within the ranks of an essential gold producer on this planet the place the establishments must personal you, you’re within the indexes, you’re in ETFs.

And that, once more, we’ve performed that a number of instances and we’re properly on our strategy to assembling the items, as we converse, to get us to that million ounces a 12 months of manufacturing, the place you’re producing nice money stream as a result of your price of manufacturing is affordable. And that, once more, we have now that in each of the operations. We all know that the numbers work in that regard. So in case you get 2 million ounces, and you’ve got nice revenue margins, after which the third half is you get right into a gold market, then that’s the place you get your Wheaton River sort story that goes from thousands and thousands to billions in a short time.

Meb: Satan’s advocate problem for you guys, somebody who’s been there and been large, after which now doing a youthful enterprise, once you go to speak with a undertaking to be a purchaser, how laborious is it? I imply, in a world you talked about earlier of low-interest charges and sort of accommodative situations and simpler cash, how laborious is it to barter with a undertaking when you’ve got possibly somebody who’s a lot larger additionally on the lookout for related initiatives? Do they worth you guys out? I really feel like that is nearly like a VC pitching a startup. How can you persuade a few of these initiatives? Is it actually sharp elbows or is it not a lot? Give me an summary of how deal cycle transactions go about or shut.

Frank: I is perhaps making a gift of commerce secrets and techniques, however each state of affairs is completely different, okay? And so all I can say is let’s take a look at the final one we simply did, our most up-to-date acquisition, okay? We had been uniquely positioned…in that state of affairs, we had been uniquely positioned to be the appropriate purchaser for that asset to make it occur due to our nation expertise in that particular nation. And so, had one other firm are available in like a bigger, say, Newmont, no matter, they wouldn’t have had the identical native capability to work with communities, work with authorities, to make issues occur in that nation. They wouldn’t have had the identical information as our administration group did. So in each state of affairs, we don’t go into bidding processes. There’s an asset that goes up on the market, and it’s going by means of a course of by means of funding banks, we keep away from that. Ian and I hate that as a result of that’s not the sport we play. We discover very particular property that nobody else can get their head round why or the way you’re going to get it, and we do these as an alternative. I don’t assume we’ve ever been in a course of, have we, Ian, the place we had been shopping for one thing on another person?

Ian: No, no. We…

Frank: It’s not our recreation.

Ian: We had been in a few bidding conditions at Wheaton River, however typically, we didn’t know we had been bidding towards another person. We had been dealing straight with the vendor and we put up our supply, after which afterwards, we discovered we outbid any person by a penny, however we had no concept. However yeah, we don’t search for these conditions in any respect. The opposite factor that occurs is due to our expertise and our observe file, once we say we’ll elevate cash, we elevate it. Once we say we’ll shut, we shut. We get a variety of alternatives due to that. Individuals know that we’re severe, and if we agree on one thing, it’s going to occur. And that’s meant that we get calls greater than most individuals about property which may be out there as a result of individuals know they will take care of it.

The opposite factor, we’re extremely good at maintaining issues quiet. And that, once more, individuals respect that, that they will take care of us, and one of many firms that Wheaton purchased was Glamis. That was an $8 billion acquisition again at that cut-off date. And everybody was watching the gold area as fastidiously as they do, all of the analysts, all of the funding bankers. Nobody had a clue till we introduced it. After which once we did the takeover of Placer with Barrick, once more, large Canadian mining occasion, not a whisper out there till it was introduced. So we’re very pleased with these issues that we’d ship, and we will maintain a secret.

Meb: One of many challenges, but additionally alternatives by means of pure useful resource firms is the cycle. There’s growth instances, there’s darkish instances, there’s in-between instances. And sort of it appears, and also you guys can illuminate me extra as a result of I’m not as in contact with this, however gold and the miners have sort of been oscillating kind of sideways. Is that this a kind of opportunistic, wealthy surroundings? Like, are there a variety of distressed properties or individuals seeking to promote mines, or what’s the overview of kind of the mining sector for a possible purchaser or vendor at this time?

Frank: I wouldn’t say that it’s a distressed surroundings. I’ll simply say it shortly right here, after which Ian can chime in, however I wouldn’t say it’s a distressed surroundings by any means. I’d extra classify it as a disinterest surroundings. It’s very quiet, very inactive. The those that personal property are sitting on them, there’s not a variety of capital funding entering into by those that personal. Once more, it jogs my memory of some 20 years in the past when it simply looks like nobody cares in the intervening time, which for us is nice.

Ian: Yeah. No, I’d agree with that. It’s a disinterested market. And the opposite factor about gold shares, the one those that personal gold shares are those that assume the value goes to go up. Nobody buys a gold inventory for the dividend, and even for a retailer of worth. They purchase gold shares as a result of they assume the value of gold goes to go up, and due to this fact the inventory will go up. And so, even when the value of gold is down, and there’s no pleasure in regards to the fairness markets, they’re nonetheless by no means low cost. They’re by no means low cost. They’re absolutely priced to at this time’s gold worth. And so, you must actually have conviction both that it’s going to get larger or conviction that the value of gold is definitely going to go up, to get in there and do a deal.

And that’s why, for my part, you see so lots of the mid-tier producers that simply kind of doddle alongside decade after decade and don’t do a lot, their inventory doesn’t do a lot, nobody’s enthusiastic about it as a result of I’d say they don’t have conviction about what they might purchase or what the value will do. And in order that’s the place we’re slightly bit completely different. However there’s by no means bargains within the gold enterprise ever, ever, ever. Frank and I haven’t discovered one but.

Frank: Not but.

Meb: Jogs my memory of native actual property right here in Los Angeles.

Ian: Yeah.

Meb: I’m an affordable bastard, and so on the lookout for bargains in actual property close to the surf breaks has been an train in futility. So, we received a variety of each institutional and particular person traders that hearken to this present. Speak to us slightly bit about how to consider placing cash to work within the miners. Was it one thing the place like, “Hey, simply go purchase an ETF and be performed with it,” or in case you’re truly going to get into the inventory choice, what must you keep away from? What must you search for once you’re sort of beginning to decide some safety choice names on this? Lots of people can get burned with inventory choice in any sector, however gold mining was one which I really feel like is fraught with locations to keep away from. Give us slightly steerage for these seeking to deploy some money right here.

Frank: I’ll go first right here. I feel you must begin together with your macro view of your portfolio. I imagine that, at first, you must be diversified. So, meaning not placing all of your eggs in a single sector. Your mining portfolio goes to be a part of your total portfolio. Inside that…By the way in which, I additionally imagine we’re in a tough asset surroundings proper now the place your total portfolio ought to be skewed in direction of laborious property, which clearly means mining firms. And never simply gold firms, mining firms basically. That is the way in which I do it. Then I take a look at my mining sector portfolio and I feel, “Nicely, what’s in there?” Nicely, clearly you’re not going to place every thing into danger property, you already know? That’s dumb. So that you’re going to purchase…there’s some unimaginable alternatives proper now with the massive worldwide miners. The Rio Tintos, the DHVs, the Valleys, the Anglos, the dividends that they’re paying at present steel costs are 10%, 12%, 13%, 14% dividends.

And in case you imagine, as I imagine, that we’re in a multiyear cycle proper now, the place inflation will maintain these steel costs elevated, then you must personal these. That’s your much less dangerous facet of the portfolio. You then all the time have some cash for…if you wish to take the chance, you’ll take a look at firms like ours and say, “Okay, I need to purchase a development firm.” With development and ambition comes danger. So you must weigh that too, however that could be a portion of your portfolio. I all the time say that in these eventualities, you higher be good at inventory choosing or be getting nice recommendation from those that know what they’re doing as a result of this trade’s simply stuffed with tons and many individuals with large concepts and really low capability to ship. And so there’s tons and many these on the market telling nice tales that don’t truly ever ship however inform nice tales. And so you must be very cautious. And so it’s all about administration, and you actually must do your homework once you come to this finish of the chance portion of your portfolio.

Ian: Nicely, the one factor I’d additionally touch upon, although, is you take a look at the observe file of the administration groups. As a result of what you do discover within the mining enterprise is similar individuals appear to have success over, and over, and over once more. And so in case you’re investing with a gaggle of individuals, take a look at those that have performed it earlier than and it’s labored out properly. As a result of take a look at, all these investments are robust, all these mining operations are troublesome, however sure individuals simply persist with it, and push laborious, and get it performed. And so along with, as Frank says, various your portfolio, and looking out on the property, and looking out on the political danger, and looking out on the geological danger, put some huge cash on administration.

Meb: It simply jogged my memory, so I simply posted a tweet actual fast, as a result of I like to ballot my viewers for sentiment and all types of issues, and it’s a superb point-in-time indicator on all types of not simply market historical past, however how are you allotted? What are you doing? And the outcomes are sometimes stunning, and considerably miserable. We requested a few highlights the place we ask individuals, what was the most important after-inflation drawdown in bonds that they thought occurred in historical past? And most of the people thought it was 5%, 10%, and the reply to that’s properly over 50%, and different questions like that, however we’ll have to attend about 10 minutes for the outcomes to come back in, however I did a do you personal gold or gold miners portfolio? So we’ll see what proportion comes out of my viewers.

However it’s humorous as a result of we did a e-book known as “World Asset Allocation” the place we checked out a variety of conventional asset allocation methods, and so long as you personal sort of all the principle classes, you are inclined to do okay, however at one explicit surroundings actually stood out, and that was the Nineteen Seventies. And also you guys received slightly gray hair. You might be extra acquainted with the ’70s, however many individuals investing at this time haven’t invested throughout that surroundings. It’s been a declining rate of interest, decrease inflation surroundings, and never lots helped within the ’70s. You personal a variety of conventional stuff, you bought taken sort of to the woodshed, however gold, clearly, was one of many large standouts. Worth shares sort of helped higher than the alternative, nevertheless it looks like you’ve got these cycles in historical past the place by the point that everybody has forgotten what kind of surroundings…they’ve solely invested throughout a sure interval, it predisposes them to an surroundings that didn’t exist. I don’t actually have any query, however do you’ve got any remark?

Frank: I feel I do know the place you’re going with this. And that is certainly one of my favourite talks, is that this era, those with the black hair such as you guys, weren’t round within the ’70s. I began on this trade in ’78, Ian just a few years earlier than me. And…

Ian: Thanks.

Frank: …we all know what it was like. And I’ll inform you what occurred. Nicely, individuals overlook about bear markets, which this era has by no means, ever, ever seen a bear market. I don’t know in case you bear in mind the Nifty Fifties, the high-flying shares of the Sixties. Nicely, that each one led to 1969. Truly, the height was 1966. 1969, it got here down actual laborious, and it didn’t hit the outdated excessive till 1982. Okay? So that you had a 13-year bear market the place issues went like this, simply sideways. And also you had a number of recessions in there. The one issues that went properly had been gold, oil, actual property, farmland, all that stuff.

And other people overlook that we’ve been accustomed, we’ve been conditioned to imagine that you just purchase on the dips, that the Fed’s going to come back to the rescue, all of those silly issues that work for lengthy durations of time till they don’t work anymore. The 1929 crash, these shares by no means hit their highs once more till 1952, there have been a variety of nice rallies in between however overlook in regards to the outdated highs. And other people don’t perceive that when a bear market actually units in, and the situations change, the whole surroundings has modified. Now you’ve had this large debt bubble that has grown over the a long time. You’ve had this straightforward cash coverage, which has spoiled everybody to dying. Everybody’s had on line casino fever now for…for the reason that pandemic began. It’s all coming to an finish. This recreation is over. What comes subsequent is anyone’s guess, however my guess is there’s a extremely good probability we’re going right into a bear market the place you must be far more selective than you ever had been. You need to take a look at the macro situations. And the macro situations have modified.

If we’re in what I imagine to be a stagflation interval, then you must decide sure shares. You may’t purchase what you had been shopping for two years in the past. And that’s what a variety of this era, they don’t get it as a result of they’ve by no means seen it. To them, it’s all inventory market crashes in 2008, inventory market crashes in 1999, it recovers two years later, after which the get together’s on once more. Nicely, I feel that this time is completely different. That is my perception. I could also be improper, however I feel we’re in for a bear market and a interval of stagflation.

Meb: Ian, any further perception? You understand, it’s humorous as a result of I didn’t publish this, however I used to be it the opposite day, in regards to the size of time of what individuals assume the long term is, what they are saying it’s, after which how they behave. They behave on kind of like that zero-to-three-year time horizon. They might say they’ve a longer-term time horizon, however they nearly by no means do. However we frequently ask like, “How lengthy do you assume truly, like, shares might go with out hitting a brand new excessive in lots of a long time?” I imply, within the U.S., in case you take it again far sufficient into the 1800s, it’s like 50 years or one thing on an actual foundation. However in case you go down an inventory, and listeners go do that, go take the 45-odd inventory markets around the globe, do it on a complete return foundation, so together with dividends, however look what number of have gone nowhere for 10 years to twenty years. Like, it isn’t an insignificant quantity. I could must go simply do the precise writing, however there’s some which can be the identical place they had been 10 years, 20 years in the past, simply not the U.S., market cap weighted. We’ll see the way it performs out, however wrestle is the norm, I feel is a neater strategy to say it. Ian, any ideas?

Ian: I can’t add to Frank’s view. I agree together with his view. After all, I can’t bear in mind the 1929 crash like Frank can, however I feel we’re in for a interval of down inventory costs in a bear market, and it’ll last more than anybody expects. And so it’s going to be a special world than we’ve all had for the final 20 years, for positive.

Meb: All proper. Who desires to make a guess? We solely have 200 votes up to now, however we’ll submit the total. It normally will begin to condense. It’s fairly shut. What do you guys guess the proportion of Meb’s followers on Twitter that personal gold or miners? So primarily based within the U.S., a variety of skilled traders, but additionally I tilt slightly in direction of…

Frank: What number of followers?

Meb: A couple of hundred and one thing thousand, 100,000, however there’s solely been 200 votes this far.

Frank: Okay. My guess is 10% to fifteen%.

Meb: Okay.

Ian: I’d say the identical, 15%.

Meb: You guys will probably be astonished as I’m that 40% stated they personal gold or miners. I guess that comes down, and I guess possibly it’s simply all of the Canadians and Australians who aren’t on trip proper now or one thing, and so they’re all voting as a result of this appears manner excessive relative to what I’d anticipate. As a result of the bizarre half is, I did this similar ballot and I requested about actual property, and nearly nobody stated they owned actual property. So there’s some kind of dislocation right here. I don’t know what it’s, however possibly everybody’s simply saying as a result of they personal S&P Index, they find yourself proudly owning just a few gold miners in there. I don’t know, however one thing is amiss. It appears excessive.

All proper. Nicely, we’re going to begin to wind down, guys. We’ve solely received most likely 10 extra minutes to speak with you. As we take into consideration sort of the longer term and look out to the horizon, something we haven’t chatted about within the investing world, within the mining world, has received you notably curious, anxious, excited, depressed, any broad emotion? Something that you just’re desirous about, something that’s maintaining you up at night time, or placing you to sleep, that we haven’t talked about? Something on the mind?

Frank: I ponder what this complete crypto collapse goes to imply for the remainder of the market, the financial system basically. I don’t assume the washout is completed but. It’s come off by two-thirds already, however I don’t assume it’s over but. It might do what the dot-com shares did again in 1999. You understand, by the point it was completed, they had been down 90%. Loads went to zero. And so we haven’t had the entire washout of the crypto mania but. And if it does come, I ponder…I’m simply curious if there will probably be a knock-on impact, and if it actually will have an effect on the remainder of the housing market, inventory market, the financial system. That’s the query mark for me. I don’t know the reply, however that will fear me a bit.

Meb: Presumably, and that is laborious to quantify, however pondering when it comes to kind of the wind and the sails of treasured metals, about how a lot consideration, notably with the youthful crowd, has been diverted for these looking for kind of a secure haven mindset of two crypto sort of autos that in any other case might have gone to treasured metals. And so in some ways, I ponder if that could possibly be a possible catalyst for a bull publicity to the miners, presuming they don’t additionally go down 80%, 90%, however seemingly that will be a optimistic. Man, the quantity of fraud and scams and simply horrible habits we’ve witnessed in the previous few years within the crypto area, definitely, if not one black eye, it’s two.

Frank: I’m simply questioning whether or not they’re going to have any cash left to put money into gold or anything. That’s what worries me as a result of I feel that a variety of that crypto crowd, the hardcore guys are happening with the ship. They don’t care, they imagine. And so it’s not like they went, “Oh, whoops. We made a mistake, and time to change horses.” Clearly, the good merchants, and I had this debate a few 12 months in the past with somebody on this, a vital debate on gold versus Bitcoin kind of factor. And I used to be being instructed by the particular person I used to be debating that each one the hedge funds and the good cash was going into Bitcoin, blah, blah. And I stated, “Guys, these are momentum gamers. The minute the momentum stops, they’re out and so they’re going to be driving another asset class. They’re not maxis. They don’t care as a lot as you. You guys…”

However there’s a very giant proportion of that crypto inhabitants that’s holding on and going, “We don’t care. It’s happening, ultimately, it’s going to go up and crypto’s going to save lots of the world.” And people are the oldsters which can be going to get fully, in my view, going to get fully worn out, and so they received’t have any cash left to place it to one thing else. So I don’t know. This complete crypto factor is a extremely bizarre one and it’s…I don’t assume we’ve ever seen something prefer it in our lifetimes, and we’ll by no means see it once more.

Meb: Ian, something that’s in your mind these days?

Ian: Nicely, the one factor, and I don’t know very a lot about it, however I’m watching with fascination because the world tries to get off of carbon fuels and get extra electrified and digitized. So due to this fact that ought to be extremely good for copper, and you may learn an article a day on how we’re going to expire of copper any minute, and but over the previous three weeks, the value of copper has collapsed. I simply don’t know the way the lithium, and the cobalt, and the copper are all going to do as we attempt to electrify the world. I do not know how that’s going to get resolved, however there’s a huge disconnect out there proper now.

Meb: And the ag area too. I imply, you’ve seen, traditionally, among the ranges of the costs we’re at now, though they’ve come down, create a variety of geopolitical unrest and also you’re seeing that. So you’ve got like a twin, each ag and power, stressor. Clearly, a variety of it’s occurring in Europe. Final go-round, it was definitely a variety of meals insecurity in Africa, Center East, Arab Spring. Hopefully, it resolves itself, however usually that results in toppling of governments and regimes and every thing else. However we had a current podcast visitor, Peter Zion, on, who had a a lot bleaker view for the autumn and sort of how that ag publicity might play out. So hopefully optimistic, nevertheless it’s definitely one thing that assets are much more entrance of thoughts than they had been when oil was buying and selling at unfavorable future values just a few years in the past.

Frank: So as to add to the ag downside, you’ve received all this local weather change stuff that’s occurring, which is absolutely affecting agriculture around the globe. I wrote an article on this final 12 months on the consequences of local weather change on agriculture and agricultural output in behemoth nations like Brazil, you already know? Whether or not they’re excessive heats, droughts, floods…I imply, they’re occurring locations the place these items shouldn’t be occurring, and so they’re actually killing…It’s weighing closely on agricultural output. Now you’ve added this complete Ukraine battle state of affairs, which as we all know, the wheat provides from Ukraine and Russia rely for about 40% of world provides. And the place’s that…who’s going to endure most? Nations in Africa, the Center East, these which have been reliant on these exports.

And I agree with you. I feel that’s one thing to be very anxious about as a result of, as I wrote not too long ago, we will all go right into a extreme recession. I can take away your iPhone and your automobile, you’ll stay. However I take away your meals, you’re going to behave in a different way. You’re going to do issues that you just wouldn’t in any other case do. And that’s the place societies collapse. That’s the place you get the Arab Springs and different conditions. So I’d be very anxious about that too. And I simply hope it doesn’t occur as a result of it could be very tragic.

Meb: Gents, final query for you each. You may have a second to consider it, nevertheless it’s a query we ask all of our friends, and it may be good or dangerous, however the query is framed, what’s your most memorable funding?

Frank: I’ve one, and this can be a very useful lesson in timing markets or the failure to time markets. And when the dot-com bubble was occurring, I used to be trying round and I used to be telling all people who listened to me that this was madness, that there was no foundation for the valuations of those tech shares, and that it will definitely would implode. And so I shorted, and I can’t bear in mind why I shorted this explicit tech inventory that was buying and selling on the NASDAQ, however I learn what it was, and it was nothing. It was primarily based on some future potential, possibly this can occur or that’ll occur, Venus will align with Mars, and all these items that to me had been mumbo-jumbo.

And also you had these giant funding banks, Wall Avenue funding banks, writing studies with these loopy projections, going, “This…” So I began shorting it and I saved going up, and I saved getting margin calls. And I used to be going, “Okay, I can’t go for it.” So I saved placing up margin, placing up margin. The inventory went from $12 to $30 to $40 to $80. And I used to be going, “This will’t go on eternally.” I ultimately bailed. And I feel I couldn’t…In any case, I misplaced a lot cash…I can’t bear in mind. I imply, it was $110, $120 a share. It went to $200, after which it went to zero. And I nonetheless misplaced some huge cash.

Meb: Shorting is so laborious. Markets can go bananas. I imply, the current examples final 12 months was with, and nonetheless ongoing, however a few of these meme shares that took down very giant brief sellers. The timing on shorting is tough, nevertheless it’s a superb lesson, and also you don’t overlook that one. I’ve had my expertise there. Ian, what do you bought?

Ian: My most memorable was at one level within the early ’90s, Robert Friedman was attempting to rent me and I wasn’t positive, and I used to be hesitant. And so he simply began throwing alternatives my manner. I lastly agreed to go and be a part of him. And as a part of that, he stated, “Nicely, I’ll make you a director of diamond fields.” And I’d by no means heard of diamond fields. And so I received inventory in diamond fields at 15 cents, I received choices at 18 cents. And in order that was nice. So the inventory made it to $5, and I believed I used to be a genius. So after all I offered it. I made sufficient cash to construct a waterfront home in Vancouver, however then the inventory went to $150. In order that’s certainly one of my most memorable investments.

Meb: We did a submit on this. I’m attempting to assume when it was and the identify of it, nevertheless it’s basically speaking about easy methods to plan for funding outcomes. And the one which most individuals take into consideration is, okay, what occurs if this inventory begins to go down, or at what level do I promote if issues go poorly? However we frequently inform individuals, we are saying, “You need to…” and that is clearly a significantly better downside to have. “You need to mentally put together for a way are you going to deal with an funding that’s the reverse, that does rather well?” So a 5-bagger, a 10-bagger, a 100-bagger. And most of the people by no means had these as a result of what occurs is that they promote after the 1-bagger. They, “Oh my God, I purchased this, it doubled. I purchased Aris, it doubled. I’m going to go purchase a brand new automobile. I’m going to go on trip, yadda, yadda.”

However the energy legal guidelines of investing the place you make some actually large wealth is each inventory that turns into a 10-bagger or a 100-bagger was as soon as a 1-bagger. And so there’s a variety of methods to consider that. I feel individuals don’t wish to assume within the binary phrases of…they wish to assume when it comes to in or out, however possibly simply promoting slightly could possibly be one resolution to keep away from the emotional ache of remorse minimization there on the precise large winner. That’s nice, guys.

Nicely, look, fellas. I’d like to maintain you all day, however all of us want to maneuver on. We’d like to have you ever again and watch what you guys are doing sooner or later. If individuals need to sort of sustain together with your firm, what your ideas, your writings, your farming merchandise you’re placing out, the place do they go? What are one of the best locations to maintain up with you guys?

Frank: I’ve received a weblog,, I write for the Toronto star each couple of weeks, I write a column on normally macro points and different issues, and you may comply with me on Twitter. That’s normally the place you’ll get my messaging.

Ian: For me. I’m not on social media, I don’t write a column for anyone. You’ll have to only control bulletins for the varied firms I’m concerned in to see what I’m as much as.

Meb: Go hike across the Canadian wilderness, discover you in a cabin. Good.

Ian: Precisely proper.

Meb: Gents, it’s been a pleasure. Thanks for taking the time to affix us at this time.

Frank: Meb, that was nice. Nice interview. Thanks.

Ian: Yeah, Meb, thanks very a lot.

Meb: Podcast listeners, we’ll submit present notes to at this time’s dialog at In the event you love the present, in case you hate it, shoot us suggestions at We like to learn the opinions. Please evaluate us on iTunes and subscribe to the present anyplace good podcasts are discovered. Thanks for listening, mates, and good investing.



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